Can Wirsbo Survive?
March 18th, 2010I have seen no tests showing superiority. There are millions of feet of both installed.
How can Wirsbo compete?
J.C.
The Wirsbo system is a pretty fast system to install. Whether it's faster than crimp pex is up for debate. It would be nice if Wirsbo would come down in price with their plastic "EP" fittings to less than that of crimp pex as this is where Crimp Pex would then not be able to compete. Wirsbo does have an easy identifier in red & blue rings if you're comparing your average supply house only stocking the generic white or clear-white versions of the pex (some stock the red & blue pipe).
In fact it is mind boggling that Wirsbo is not cheaper than Crimp Pex. Crimp Pex you have a copper or stainless steel crimp ring, and a brass fitting or copper manifold. Wirsbo has brass or plastic fittings, with plastic rings, and their plastic rings and plastic fittings apparently cost more than crimp pex (from what I've heard).
It's easy to say you don't miss crimps but I'm talking about missed crimps, period. Yes we all test for the inspector but you shouldn't have any doubts about your system when you go to fill it up for the first time.. And also - if you are getting your apprentice to repair something - there are no guarantees with Crimp Pex. I've seen lots of poorly done crimps by apprentices that I got them to repair. Wirsbo is a better system in most cases for tight spaces as I've stated before. Not all, but most.
With Wirsbo expansion - the tools do not cost more. You can get a Wirsbo tool that does 1/2" to 1" for about $300-ish. For Crimp Pex you'd technically need 3 seperate tools @ $125-150+ each (although I know there are combo crimpers but for arguements sake) plus you might want to invest in a set or 2 (another 1 or 2x $150+) of one hand crimpers and/or confined space crimpers (about $30+).
There are several tricks to dealing with Wirsbo in cold environments. And if you're really paranoid hit it with a heat gun later.
I don't think my arguments are neccessarily biased against or for Wirsbo - I am agreeing with you, but still keeping an open mind. I really think Rehau is the cats arse though. Wirsbo only promotes their expansion ring system - where as apparently Rehau doesn't mind if you use crimp rings on their pipe if need be (check the warranty literature however) or the everloc system which is about as good as it gets for strength of connection.
As for flow problems - Yes technically all pex systems suffer flow loss due to fittings having a smaller cross section than the pipe in comparison to copper where the fittings are larger. But it's not as bad as people will lead you to believe, and if you size it as per code you should be fine. This is a fairly old argument, but at the end of the day it's not as big of a deal as one would think. I've installed a few what I would call satellite systems that have excellent pressure distribution. BAsically you have 1" or 3/4" hot and cold mains that do a tour of the house near relevant fixtures and groups of fixtures and you have flow through manifolds in areas where fixtures are that you take off 1/2" lines (or 3/4") for each seperate fixture. It's sort of like treating the main as one big manifold and subsequently you have excellent pressure distribution. Where Pex shines is if you are a good installer, you can have virtually no fittings between the source and the fixture as opposed to copper which requires multiple fittings which cause head loss. Also think of those braided supply lines you just installed on your tap?
Anyways - Wirsbo needs to shape up with their pricing that's for sure if they want to compete. But if I were you it wouldn't hurt to have a Wirsbo tool in the van and maybe an assortment of rings & fittings as well.
I apologize but I live in a 2 million resident city where we have a myriad of different suppliers and we don't have any issues with getting any type or model of fitting/pipe, etc, etc.
1) It's PEXa so it's got one of the highest degrees of cross linking and you can repair kinks with a heat gun.
2) It's fast
3) There are no missed "crimps."
4) I think it's probably slightly better in tight locations than Crimp pex is, and more difficult to screw up a crimp in tight locations.
5) You also don't need to worry about calibrating the tool compared to crimp pex tools. I also like the convenience of having one manual tool to do 3 sizes (1/2", 3/4", 1") in a nice convenient package.
But DAYUM has it ever gotten expensive compared to the competition and haven't the competition caught up to it warranty wise?
ON the other hand compared to another PEXa like Rehau, Rehau is more expensive than Wirsbo for the fittings (I think the pipe for Rehau is probably cheaper though) and where I live the Rehau everloc system is the only approved connection method approved to be encased in concrete should you have a pipe damaged before or during a concrete pour. But Rehau is in my opinion a more robust connection, and rehau fittings have a larger cross section in the diamter of their fittings so they have less flow restriction than Pex or Wirsbo fittings. But Rehau isn't the best in tight locations.
Rehau Everloc fittings cross sections are somewhere between crimppex/wirsbo & copper fitting cross sections. When you put the Everloc sleeve on, then expand the pipe and insert the fitting, the pipe doesn't shrink back to it's original size as much as Wirsbo pipe does.
1) It's PEXa so it's got one of the highest degrees of cross linking and you can repair kinks with a heat gun.
2) It's fast
3) There are no missed "crimps."
4) I think it's probably slightly better in tight locations than Crimp pex is, and more difficult to screw up a crimp in tight locations.
5) You also don't need to worry about calibrating the tool compared to crimp pex tools. I also like the convenience of having one manual tool to do 3 sizes (1/2", 3/4", 1") in a nice convenient package.
But DAYUM has it ever gotten expensive compared to the competition and haven't the competition caught up to it warranty wise?
ON the other hand compared to another PEXa like Rehau, Rehau is more expensive than Wirsbo for the fittings (I think the pipe for Rehau is probably cheaper though) and where I live the Rehau everloc system is the only approved connection method approved to be encased in concrete should you have a pipe damaged before or during a concrete pour. But Rehau is in my opinion a more robust connection, and rehau fittings have a larger cross section in the diamter of their fittings so they have less flow restriction than Pex or Wirsbo fittings. But Rehau isn't the best in tight locations.
In response:
1)I was told PEXa, PEXb, PEXc, were not ratings at all but just identifiers. While the Engl method does offer highest crosslinking last I checked, is this the most desirable method? Do the other methods offer some superiority in other areas such as UV degradation?
2)While you may consider expansion connections fast, crimp connections are much faster. Check behind me if anyones unfamiliar with both.
3)Missed crimps? Don't miss one on crimped systems. Check/test everything beforehand.
4)Don't know of anyone that has ran into a tight location problem when using crimp systems where they could not complete the job.
5)Calibration is necessary. But not that often. It is nice to have one tool to do several sizes. Some of the cinch-clamp systems can do this also.
I just see them being unable to compete provided other systems such as Viega's continue to prove reliable.
With Wirsbo expansion, the tools cost more, it takes longer to install fittings, cold environments have to make adjustments when installing.
Also, any insert fitting system can cause flow problems. Crimp or expansion. Any good plumber should allow for this in the design.
What got me interested in the Wirsbo system is I have a couple of customers that have it in there house. The companies that installed it are out of business. There is one supplier in town that carries Wirsbo exclusively. But they do not carry PEX expansion rings & fittings and got a little confused & pissed when I asked about it. They sell crimp rings & the fittings for them. :eek: They also do not sell the tools for Wirsbo.
J.C.
Wirsbo/Uponor if I remember correctly use an expansion tool on the pipe and do not reduce the flow through with the fittings.
okie
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